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How to lean W-A-Y over in corners?????

27K views 93 replies 30 participants last post by  sedona sunrider 
#1 ·
Hey guys, :hmmm:
I just took the DR350 out on it's maiden SM voyage down a tight, twisty, hilly road with a 120/65-17 Mich. pilot sport (front tire) on the rear, and a 120/60-17 Power Race (soft compound) on the front. It's virtually a slick with a bit of tread to pass DOT.

This thing is like freakin' GLUED to the road. Especially the front tire (Power race soft), the profile at the sides is virtually parallel to the rim, the tread wraps practically all the way to the rim, so theoretically, I have enough tread on the edges to virtually touch the bars to the ground.

I am really confused though. I see all these pics of pro's leaning over so far they touch their elbows to the track and such. I was decked out and planning on trying my nerve, at least a little knee work.

My question is this, Remember, this was my first time out since the SM rebuild- I have the shock spring cranked up pretty stiff so it won't squat much in the corners, and although the DRZ forks still have the stock springs, I was under power all the time so my weight was on the rear tire while cornering, and my FIRST time out I was dragging the pegs a few different times.

HOW do these Pro's get the bike leaned over so far? Is the DR just that much wider? I was leaning the bike as far as physically possible because the pegs were grinding solidly on the road - I wasn't hanging off much, but there was NO WAY I could have even put a knee down, much less an elbow.

What am I missing? The SM track wants sliders on both axles, the bar ends, and under the footpegs. If I do that, I may as well ride a cruiser around the track, I won't be able to lean it at all.

I know sliding the corners isn't the fastest way to get around the track, but I'm not in it to race, I just want to have fun, and to me that means trying to touch my elbow, etc and see how low I can go.

Do I just need a narrower bike? Or, since I only have a small rear tire, that is also limiting my ground clearance. A higher profile, and wider tread would provide more clearance, but not THAT much... and the widest I can fit is a 140, which limits my choices.. (has anyone tried a BT003RS for street use??)

I have some slicks that are 125/80-17's, that would be a good bit taller, but I can''t run 'em on the street, and I can't afford to waste money at the track if I can't lean the bike over...

Can any of you PLEASE enlighten me as to what I can do, or what others are doing, to allow them to lean as far as they want without grinding half their bike off?

Thanks!
Joe
 
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#33 ·
WOW, Thanks for all the responses, guys. I appreciate all your input.

First, let me say I never intended to compare myself to David Checa or Dani Ribalta, not in this lifetime, anyway. I was just contrasting what was possible (lean angle) with nothing more than their footpegs folding a bit, versus my experience on the DR350 with the peg (although folding) dragging easily while I still have a 1/2" chicken strip left on the tire.

I was trying to find ways of increasing the clearance, so I could use more of the tire.

I realize that a wider rear tire will in effect "raise" the clearance at full lean, but a shortage of money and tire choices that will fit (140 max) limit exploring that avenue, as well as a new pair of SM boots. Sticking my leg out in corners with rubber-soled MX boots seems like suicide, because if it touches the road it seems like it will GRAB like mad, and end my ride fast.

That's one of the main reasons I want the clearance to lean the bike as far as my skill level and courage will allow.

I'm not interested in racing - on a DR350??? It would be a joke anyway compared to modern bikes. I'm just interested in having as much fun as I can, with what I have to work with.

If my health hadn't killed my business, I'd be riding a KTM or such, but for now I have to be content with what I have, and make the best of it.

I really appreciate everyone's comments, tech, riding style, etc. I'm new to SM, so it's all good info to me, and I appreciate your time in posting it!

Thanks again,
Joe
 
#34 ·
Note that on the picture he's backing it in like mad. Lean your bike over in the garage and then crank the handlebars to the stops like on the bike in the picture. Notice you'll get the pegs go up since the front wheel is pushing up.

I suppose to be able to do it it'll be necessary to learn to back it in and then immediately transition to a powerslide. I've seen Holden and other crazy fast dudes do that at our local track, they get it cranked over pretty well and yes Jake drags elbow on a sumo bike when he decides he's done with this set of tires and needs to finish 'em off :)
 
#35 ·
Note that on the picture he's backing it in like mad. Lean your bike over in the garage and then crank the handlebars to the stops like on the bike in the picture. Notice you'll get the pegs go up since the front wheel is pushing up.
Finally someone points that out!

In reality this is probably the dumbest question asked on this site in a long time. You are never going to be able to do that and in my opinion you shouldnt want to. Maybe Shervin could help you on your bike setup, that should help.
 
#36 ·
The only dumb question is the one that's not asked. I too at first thought this was a dumb question, but realized everyone at one time or another had a crazy question. Most people were to afraid to ask though. I agree that this is not necessary and this doesn't mean your fast because you can touch your elbow to ground. I think that if Sedona Sunrider wants to try this out then go for it:thumbup: I personally want to get around the track the quickest way and I highly doubt this is the quickest way. In terms of bike set up then you may need to do a few things. I don't think this post is going to give you the answers you need or even want to hear. If you want to drag your elbow then go drag your elbow. That is your right. Good luck and ride safe.:thumbup:
 
#39 ·
Hey everyone,

Dakh, I've noticed that as well, but before I can even think of getting to that point (many years, and probably a new bike away), I need to be able to lean the bike more than is currently possible as it is set up.

That's the main purpose of my question, not because I'm a hot dog wanna be, just to make the bike better. Sure, I'd like to be able to do stuff like that someday, it looks like a blast to me, but I'm being realistic and starting with simple clearance issues that limit my ride down even a twisty road.

510, why so judgmental? I don't imagine you were born with a numberplate on your chest, someone, probably lots of people, shared their knowledge and experience with you to help you get where you are. I would think you, of all people, could relate.

As I plainly stated, I'm new to SM, and don't have the bucks right now for another bike, so I'm simply trying to do the best I can with what I have to work with. I looked to the members of this forum for advice, because you have more experience.

The obvious solutions I see are a wider rear tire, and progressive rate springs with a significant preload to keep the suspension from compressing so much in the corners. However, that costs money I don't have right now. That said, I know from experience that there are often little things that can be inexpensively done, that while not much in themselves, can contribute to making the bike better overall.

DamnDummy, Thanks for your understanding. I agree, that's definitely not the fastest way to get around a track at all, but a DR350 is NEVER going to be fast around a track compared to today's bikes, I am merely wanting to have fun with what I have. The emphasis being on "fun", which everyone has their own opinions of, that's why there are different forms of racing - not everyone wants to go fast in a straight line, or spend life sideways around an oval.

Me, I have an old bike in very good condition (freshly rebuilt & modified), and I want to have as much fun with it as I can, within it's (and my) limitations.

I saw that SM video, and while I realize I likely won't live long enough to EVER touch an elbow without the rest of the body following suit, That video looked like WAY more fun to ME, than the motocross or roadracing I did 25 years ago.

That said, all I want to do is get this old beast to handle curves as best I can. It's got obviously limited power, although it's by far the fastest DR350 I've ridden or raced against, it's got big brakes front & rear, DRZ forks, and lots of other specialty and handmade pieces.

Does any of that matter if I were to try and race it? Not in the least, every bike there would walk away from me. Point being once again, FUN is the primary goal, and more ground clearance = more fun, to me. That's why I started this post in the first place.

Thanks everyone for your replies, once again, and any and all worthwhile suggestions are always greatly appreciated!
 
#41 ·
If you want to get crazy lean angles, you are gonna need a shit load of skill, big tires with a massive contact patch out back (165 or 170 slick) and a bike with a chassis and suspension up to the task. I just dont see getting a DR350 to turn like this, however Im sure you can have a lot of fun and learn to be a better rider on your current bike.

 
#43 ·
Sorry man, i guess i could have said that differently...And no that pic isnt me, its just a pic i found and liked...Haha. I think your question is actually how to get the most from your bike and lean angle is really only a small portion of the equation.

If your question is how to get your bike to handle better then you need to get some suspension work done. Get your forks and shock valved for your weight and for supermoto, if this is out of your price range i would crank up the compression and try messing with it as well as the height of the forks in the tripple clamps. These simple things can make a world of difference. Good tires are also important, i know that some people seem to like pilot power race tires you have but from my understanding it is hard to get them up to temperature with the lighter bike. This will not necessarily "make the bike lean way over" but it should help make the bike handle much better. The real joy of riding a sumo is the fact that they are so light and can go from right to left before you blink and eye.

These guys that you see leaned way over like that are on big slicks with bikes tuned day by day for track conditions...This isnt going to be possible with street tires on regular roads...Plus its these guys jobs to be good at riding, if i was as good at riding as i am at my job...Well we have all imagined what that would be like.

You will also have to adapt your riding style to fit the bike, most pros seem to be using the "push the bike down under you" method. Look at all the pictures and you will see that unlike road racing their body has way less lean than the bike, of course this all depends on the speed of the corner as well as many other factors.

All of that behind us, i would just get out there and ride it! I bet more seat time will help you figure out what the bike is actually capable of doing and i know that I personally dont do my bike justice but who really cares anyways?
 
#44 ·
Hey 510,
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate your time.

I was out looking the bike over, and I realized that the forks do sag about 3/4-1" just with the weight of the bike, so I'm trying to figure out how to get the DRZ forks apart, to add a spacer and give it some preload. These forks don't just unscrew like the DR forks did. Someone told me to back off the compression and rebound adjusters all the way first, then the cap should unscrew, and there is a 17mm nut that attaches to the damper rod. Once I loosen that, then supposedly the cap and spring as well will come out.

The rear sags about 1-1/2-2" just with the weight of the bike, so it needs WAY more rear preload. I forgot that I backed off the rear preload the other day because I was teaching my roommate to ride it, and he couldn't touch the ground. That alone will be a huge improvement, and may give me enough room to get a knee down around some of the tight hairpin turns around the lake.

How much sag should a properly set-up suspension have? With or without rider weight on board?

DAKH, you mentioned crank up the compression damping, and I'm assuming back off the rebound a bit so it will tend to keep the forks extended, but not so much that it "pogoes" up & down between turns.

Of course, a wider tire will also help as well. Sumo said Avon Distanzia's are the way to go for a street SM tire, and that their 140/80-17 dualsport is basically the same compound, and a bit taller as well. I'll have to save up for that though. I had been thinking B'stone BT003RS 140/70 dual compound, which would be a little shorter, and also easier for my little motor to spin.

I hear they're running 150 rears on the new 250 sumo bikes now... are those 250's that much more powerful than my fresh 376cc with bored out 35mm race carb, huge ports and custom 1-3/4" hand built exhaust?

I'm thinking of putting it on a dyno just for kicks, a race shop here said they'd do it for $20, or $50 with a jetting analysis, so I just have to schedule a time.

I could kick myself now, because I passed on a brand new progressive rear spring a while ago, because I was spending the $ on the motor instead.

I know I won't be doing any stunts like that for a while, and definitely not on public roads. We do have a great sumo track here (www.p1cartcircuit.com) so I do have a safe place to practice once the bike is ready.

I spoke to some of the local experts there about running 120's F&R (slicks, which I already have), and they said that is what they use on the rental bikes there, and didn't think I'd have a problem with it.

I know the "fast way" isn't laid over sliding, but that's what I grew up doing on my KZ1000R on the track. It was a 460#, 12,000 RPM screamer on a 130/90 rear Dunlop K391R Sport Elite DOT race compound tire, and I used to slide it all over the place, so that's what I'm used to. I didn't do it much during a race, because it costs you time, but I loved it in practice. That's why I'm trying every way I can think of to get as much clearance as possible, so once I put the slicks on it, I'll be free to lean as far as I want with my courage as the only limiting factor.

I know I'll never be competitive with the current crop of bikes, so why worry about it, I just want to go out and play with it, and to me that means l-e-a-n it over and see how far you can go.

I do have to ask about the "push the bike down" technique though - you can't do that with regular MX boots, can you? If your inside foot ever touched the track, it seems like the rubber sole would grab and the ride would be over fast. You would need specialized sumo boots, right? I have MX boots, and Sidi B2s, but no budget for another pair of boots. I guess that's one more reason for me to just lean it roadrace style...

HEY, one more question - tire pressures - for such a relatively light bike, what is a good starting point (cold- 90-100 degrees here in the desert) for DOT tires when I'm heading for the twisties?

Thanks for all the help everyone!
 
#46 ·
How much sag should a properly set-up suspension have? With or without rider weight on board?
HEY, one more question - tire pressures - for such a relatively light bike, what is a good starting point (cold- 90-100 degrees here in the desert) for DOT tires when I'm heading for the twisties?

Thanks for all the help everyone!
Sag with rider should be 25 to 33% of total travel. 25psi is a good starting point for tires. http://www.superplushsuspension.com/s-techsag.htm
 
#47 ·
One other side note about David Checa or Dani Ribalta dragging their elbows. If you notice in the video, Ribalta waits until the bike is done sliding, at the apex of his turn, then he leans over to touch the elbow.

In your picture, he's actually crashing without crashing. He's using his knee and elbow to bring the bike back to it's tires.

As far as getting your bike to lean over that far, we'll it's the same as getting to Carnegie Hall.... practice, practice, practice. Pick a goal for a practice session, figure out how to get to that goal and then go practice it in slow increments until you get it or decide it's beyond your abilities. Remember, discretion is better than plaster! :lol:
 
#48 · (Edited)
hate to say it but you are asking us how to run a marathon while barely being able to crawl. These pics are of top level riders with bikes that have suspension worth more than your bike. They have race slicks, prob each have their own mechanic and suspension guy to help them set up the bike.

You're running a dr350 with mismatched tires, that are the wrong size, wrong compound, on the street, crap suspension, etc. The lean angles in those pics are in a different universe than you right now.

If you really want to be able to do that, I would suggest getting a properly set up bike, and be ready to spend a few years/ many thousands of dollars on track time, many crashes, etc. Those guys didn't get there from setup alone, in fact the bike is probably 1% of them being able to drag elbow. If you think you can be able to get anywhere close to that with some folding pegs or sliders, you're very sadly mistaken. Just like you're mistaken that your bike is leaning over as much as physically possible just because the pegs are scraping. These lean angles are like climbing mt everest, and you dragging peg or knee is the equivalent of starting to pack a tent and some boots.
 
#56 ·
to me it read more like what do I need to do to my 1980's gs500 to make it handle like rossi's M1. :rofl:

There is no magic setup that will make your SM lean that far over. There's a reason suspension guys are paid the big bucks, and teams will have suspension mechanics seperate from bike mechanics, it's a black art. Same thing with tires. If it was that easy we'd all be out there dragging elbow and backing it in. :clap:
 
#51 ·
DAKH,
Thank you for understanding...

GUYS, I KNOW A DR350 AND PROBABLY ME TOO ARE NOT CAPABLE OF DRAGGING AN ELBOW. THAT SAID, I NEVER EXPECTED ALL OF YOU TO TAKE IT LITERALLY, THAT IS JUST THE DIRECTION I WANT TO GO. I REALIZE I CANNOT GET THERE ON A DR350, AND PROBABLY NOT IN THIS BODY EITHER.

I WOULD JUST LIKE TO GET THE BIKE AS WELL SET UP AS POSSIBLE SO THE LIMITING FACTOR IS ME, NOT THE HARD PARTS DRAGGING.



DAKH, are you saying that regular rubber-soled MX boots are what some riders are using on SM tracks? I thought you needed soles that would slide on the pavement, like the ones Sidi makes?

Thanks for all your help, everyone! Keep the suggestions coming!
Joe
 
#53 ·
DAKH, are you saying that regular rubber-soled MX boots are what some riders are using on SM tracks? I thought you needed soles that would slide on the pavement, like the ones Sidi makes?
I can tell you this much: the compound on regular sidi replaceable soles doesn't feel/look any different than on supermoto-specific ones. The only difference I see is SM soles have more meat on the sides. Personally I only skim the surface (except when trying to save a front end slide), so a set of Sidi SRS soles lasted me a season.
 
#54 ·
Hey Guys,
DAKH, thanks, but if I understand what you're saying, I do need a set of SM boots with replaceable soles... I can't use the regular MX rubber-soled boots as I expected, right?

510, thanks for the setup info, I'll definitely measure & adjust mine accordingly. The bike does want to fall into corners pretty bad if you ride it easy, much less noticeable under power. Basically, the harder I ride it, the better it goes where I want. The 120/60 on the rear is a flatter profile than the 120/65 pilot power on the front, which is very round, and I'm sure that no doubt contributes to it. Just looking at the wear patterns on the tires shows the front to have about a 1//4" wider chicken strip than the rear, meaning a more rounded profile.

I understand what you mean about tire size vs rim width, I have only a 3.5" rear rim, so a 140 is about max, and the dual-sport Distanzia 140/80 or a 140/70 BT003RS Bridgestone are about the only choices I'm aware of that will fit. The Conti SM's and Avon SM's start at 150/70, which is probably too wide for my rim, and will also probably hit the chain.

I was told the D/S version of the Distanzia is basically the same as the SM version, just a different profile, but they handle about the same.

I'll start with sag, and go from there... anybody got a spare distanzia sitting in the garage? :)) That's an extra $150 I don't have right now unfortunately.

This being poor stuff really sucks, when my business was still viable, I had all the cash I wanted... I just wish I knew about SM then, I'd have a nice bike already...!

Thanks!
 
#57 ·
sedona -

There are a few companies that sell boot sliders, such as APA. They simply attach to the sole of your boot by screws and can be replaced. They seem to work like a charm for those that use them.

I wasn't trying to bag on you or your goal. One of my goals was to get the bike (525 SMR) over far enough to drag a peg. I put peg sliders on it because the tracks require them, but soon I noticed that the sliders had wear spots on them. I'm still not sure when it happened, but at least I know I'm getting down that far.

Seriously, set a goal for a practice session and work toward accomplishing that goal. When you get to that goal, work on getting there smoother. Eventually, it all works together.
 
#58 ·
Hey Guys, thanks for the replies.

PNE, I agree that the limiting factor ultimately comes down to you. Regardless of what you ride, you can always find ways via experience, practice, etc. to ride it faster and more smoothly.

As good a rider as you are, do you think you could go as fast around the track on a cruiser with floorboards? Heck no, everything would be dragging, and regardless if you were standing with both feet on the inside floorboard, you couldn't begin to compensate for the lack of lean angle required to go the speed at which you are used to.

That's an exaggerated example of why I started this post. In a manner of speaking, I'm trying to "raise my floorboards", if you will.

I've learned a lot from here, about things like suspension setup and tires for example. I'm grateful to all the riders who have taken the time to post the information, and I will certainly apply it.

Simply stiffening up the suspension, and increasing compression damping will already give me a greater lean angle, and a larger rear tire will absolutely help as well, as soon as I can afford it.

When I get the money, a properly matched set of progressively-wound springs would also likely be a noteworthy improvement for the money spent, rather than just cranking up the preload, or using fork spring spacers to stiffen up too-soft springs.

I'll soon be at a catch-22 point with this bike though, where I can't afford a newer bike, but it doesn't make sense to keep throwing money away on the DR, a little at a time.

THAT will be the point that brings us back to where you started - the bike will have reached it's practical and economic limits, (the "floorboards" will have been removed, so to speak) so then the only improvement that is left to make will be ME, which has been my goal from the beginning. Then, the more time spent in the saddle, the more I will learn, as you have wisely pointed out.

MX CAT, Thanks for the info on the sliders, I'll check APA, and perhaps I can google them and find some to add to my MX boots.

If anyone else knows any other sources for boot sliders to attach to my MX boots, please let me know!

Thanks again, everyone!:thumbup:
 
#59 ·
just a thought but perhaps the weight distribution and center of gravity on that bike could also be limiting. i suggest this because my old steel framed air head pig loves to drag hard parts on the ground before tapping out traction on my tires, and i run motard/flat track with a 17" rear and 19" front lol.

ps be careful not to lowside somewhere you're not fully prepared to, i've had some close calls with a dragging kickstand.
 
#60 ·
Hey Zeus,
Thanks for the thought, I appreciate it.

The Project SM is on hold for now, pending an influx of cash, and a bunch of healing due to an unintended off-road excursion that I can't even remember due to a bad concussion. Thanks for the reply, though. I shoehorned a 160/6o pilot on the rear 3-1/2" rim, and it gave a lot more ground clearance. I'm just not in any condition to try it out right now..
Thanks!
Joe
 
#67 ·
Hey Guys,

Thank you all very much for all the input. I've been moving for the last 10 days or so, it's all piled in the new place now, just in a ton of boxes I still need to go through. In the meantime I've been staying in my RV so I don't have to look at it.


Here is a closeup of the 160 on my 3.5" rim. (if the pic comes through)

I KNOW it's not meant to mount on that small of a rim, but if i go to a 4.5 rim, the tire will expand and hit my chain... then I'll be limited to a 140 tire or smaller.

You all have wider swingarms than I do, and I'm just trying to find the best combo that will fit and work satisfactorily. This was only a test tire, to see if it could fit at all, and what it would ride like. BTW it sticks great. I met one SM racer who said that although it's not ideal, I have the benefit of never being able to run off the side of the tire... He said he used to do that when he was just starting out, and the grip was always incredible compared to the "correct" size tire for the bike.

When I was building it, I did a lot of machining to make sure the rim was perfectly centered in the swingarm, but that did mean bringing the chain a bit closer to the tire to accomplish that.

Shervin... is that anything like sherbet? Sorry, no holes here. I was thinking of cutting a bunch of holes in the tire sidewalls to lighten it, and then just run a tube.. (JUST KIDDING!)

I'm only asking questions here because I'm new to SM, and want to do things as best I can with the bike I have to work with. If you find that funny and can't come up with a reasonable response, I encourage you to find a more productive hobby than sitting in front of your computer, maybe go read the comics or something.

If simple beginner questions only create wisecracks in your too-tight helmet-head, then maybe you should find another thread more to your liking. Maybe search "homer simpson or the like.

Skully, was that MRI pic before or after the crash :)) ???

Thanks a lot to most everyone for your help!
Joe
 

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#70 ·
Skully, was that MRI pic before or after the crash :)) ???

Thanks a lot to most everyone for your help!
Joe
guzzimoto already pointed it out. you'll get better performance out of a tyre if you simply use the correct tyre for your rim, both grip and handling wise.

that tyre now looks so pinched it's not even funny. read the sticky at the top of this page, the difference between a 160 tyre on a 5 inch and a 160 tyre on a 4,25 inch rim can differ up to 50% in contactpatch. technicaly you don't even need a tyre that wide. the part where a big contactpatch comes in handy is if you need to put a lot of power down and vice versa, in order to make use of a big tyre and rim you actually need a bit of power. lots of contact with the ground has an upside and a downside. upside is it provides grip, downside is that grip also means more friction and friction slows you down to a degree. not to mention the extra weight of the bigger tyre and/or rim also means a bike has to work harder to increase the rotation of that mass, can make a difference on less powerfull machines.

leaning a bike over doesn't take a huge tyre, else we'd all be running widened "custom hayabusa styled" swingarms with 260 rears. just look at what size tyres the general 125 racers use and they get around just fine on those rather skinny things.

btw wisecracks are part of SMJ, why you think I made it to mod, wasn't because of my good looks :laughingr gotte learn to take a little creative critisism there dude, no harm intended.
 
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